124264-how-we-can-improve-wildstars-financial-success
Content ---- ---- ---- I very much agree that advertising would go a long way. However, we have to remember that WS had a considerable playerbase at launch. That hype suceeded in getting players, but the game itself is what caused them to leave. The vast majority of those who have left are not likely to come back. While much improved since then, I feel that the game must first be at a point where it is not going to drive away those the advertising would bring in. Additionally, as WS is a commercial failure, it is not likely that CRB are in control of how much is spent on advertising. In other words, any amount of player feedback will not likely change WS' advertisement in any way. As such, I feel like focusing the discussion on what we can do will have the most benefit. In your opinion, which is the best WS video one can link to generate interest? So if WS were to come up in a discussion, what video would you post to best convince others to give it a shot? | |} ---- Launch wasn't great, and the new WoW expansion came out a month later. Both of those factors probably took most of the playerbase. I wouldn't be surprised if Warlords of Draenor release alone was responsible for at least 50% of those people who left. Once they get bored of the tiny amount of content Bliz gave them for another $60 DLC, a percentage of them will try out Wildstar again. And Carbine has fixed at least 90% of the problems that were present at launch. So I think it's more or less guaranteed that a lot of players that didn't like launch would be more interested now if more advertisement caught their attention. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- What would you think about a friend referral reward system to encourage people to recruit more? | |} ---- That would certainly help. | |} ---- Not an option. NCSoft is the publisher, and Valve would demand a cut of sales. Won't happen. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Probably the best advertising Wildstar could get. It's also probably the most effective so far. The upward trend in the game's population is possible because Carbine has done a lot to address player concerns, but it actually happened because of us and the tools we've gotten so far. A Wildstar ad on a website will never, ever, ever be as effective as a player's own feedback will be. I recall Eclips coming onto the forums and pleading for extra trial codes (before the ten day trial) because he streamed the PVP in this game and suddenly had people asking to give the game a shot. The ten day trial has helped immensely in that regard. That's why you see so many new players buying the box and checking out that first month's sub. I do expect a bigger PR push a la FFXIV:ARR will come (and long before they go to F2P or anything like it, they'll get the game back into "draw" shape and do something major to give their subscription model a chance. However, that's not happening until PVP is in better condition. I'm not sure Drop 5 will even be enough time to do it, I think they may even wait all the way until they get enough changed around to start Season 2. The upward population trend right now is a good sign, but NCSoft, I think, at least knows better than to put out a huge PR push to attract subscribers until they think their systematic PVP will hold water. No point in doing that now, with figures starting to turn around, to attract all the PVE players back but have PVP players think the rated isn't worth it. I'd be surprised if that isn't changed drastically upcoming. | |} ---- I went to the official Wildstar stream asking for 10 day trial codes. The result? I'm permanently banned from speaking in twitch.tv/wildstar Sure, I could've probably worded it better than, "Why are you guys jumping around in circles at level 7 while those of us trying to grow the game can't get a response for trial codes?" But that kind of stuff matters. I asked 3 different CRB, on the subreddit, and tweeted 2 different Wildstar accounts for trial codes before, but no response, or "I don't know." Every MMO I've ever played I've found out about word of mouth. You'd think CRB marketing would consider that, even it involves leaving people like me entirely out of the process. | |} ---- How can we expand upon this? What media platforms are most effective, reddit? What format of experience sharing works best, testimonial, trailer, gameplay video? | |} ---- Whatever platform you inhabit most seems to be the most effective. I know I spend a lot of time here and do a lot of word of mouth on Facebook, but anywhere usually works. | |} ---- Sadly, I am sure I am not the only person who "blew their load" of friends, family and game-buddies at launch. As well you know, I came in with a dozen people and the Saddles had over 200 members during Launch Month. The reason I was so far behind leveling was because of the sheer amount of time I spent those first two months chatting people up, "selling" the game, helping answer questions and building the community. Within the first week alone, four of my friends left. At the end of the first "free" month of game time, there were only two of us left - and by the end of Month Three, things were looking very grim. What I'm saying is, those bridges are burned and there is nothing I can say or do, outside of actually paying people to play, to get any of them to come back. Fixes, new content, merges, all the good ideas in the world and it's all fruitless. There is only one chance to make a good first impression ... and sadly for both us and the studio, that time has passed. Damage control and spin all you want, it's not going to change that reality. Months ago, I was one of the people screaming "NO F2P/B2P OR I'LL WALK" - now that the newness has rubbed off, I think it's time to reevaluate that a little bit. I've also been a long-time fan of cash shops for non-essential items like pets, costume sets and piddly stuff like that. Of course that's always been met with "OMG U GIT CONTENT I DON'T GIT CUZ U HAZ MONEY!!!!" or "Y I NO GIT E'RRYTHING U MAEK 4 GAME I PAID 4, GG CARBINE!" You want more money for the game ... let them open a cash shop or go F2P/B2P/whatever without screaming about it. | |} ---- ---- Game's picking up members at a pretty rapid pace, as are the Saddles (and I'm not even online recruiting much right now). A lot of people are coming back, as well (I mean, look around, you'll see a lot of old familiar faces around). And this is without any damage control or spin, this is just them improving content and giving us a 10 day free trial. We're doing a lot better than we were before. NCSoft hasn't said a word in their own defense, and the Carbine employees aren't defending themselves anywhere near as often as they used to. The word's still getting out. NCSoft hasn't even really TRIED to market the game yet, producers aren't raining all over the magazines with interviews, we aren't seeing FFXIV:ARR's free months, the 10 day free trial isn't even on the front Wildstar page yet. Seems a little much to assume they've exhausted their options when they don't appear to have really even started yet. I mean, to be fair, if they do institute F2P, I'm not going to throw a tantrum. I'm just not going to stay. I love this game, but I love my principles a lot more. And as I mentioned above, they haven't even started to try yet. | |} ---- Wow what a horribly disingenuous characterization of folks who dislike cash shops. :/ As far as improving WildStar, I think Carbine needs to just keep on trucking with the improvements to the game and put more effort into advertising. I do what I can on my social media circles to get the word out, but I'm not one of those people who's accrued a million followers, so my reach is limited. I do make sure to comment on WildStar's official facebook posts with how much I'm enjoying the game to counter the haters, though. | |} ---- ---- Oh, I wasn't saying things aren't better than they were - but brother, that's a far cry from where it SHOULD be and an even further cry from where it was at launch. I've read these boards almost every day since I left. I follow along. I keep up with the news. I didn't really just decide to come back because of the soundtrack (though that is what pushed me back over the edge.) I came back because I love this game, this IP and this community. I was very let-down after investing almost a year in Closed Beta only to see it tank so hard, so fast. When I come here and folks are very obviously sticking their heads in the sand, it makes me wanna pull my hair out. I am *thrilled* to see that some aspects of the community are doing as well as they are - and while it's admirable that folks are still playing and having fun, we'd all be remiss to think that things are just hunky-dory because no one has come here in an official capacity and told us otherwise. Anecdotal evidence being what it is, you can't tell me that only having one really, truly healthy server is where this game should be - especially after living through the insanity of launch week and seeing how many people actually wanted (and did) play this game during the first month. I don't presume to have the answers. I just know it's high time that we, as a community, stop trying to argue against every other idea to bring in more people (read: more money). F2P/B2P is just the fast, lazy route. It certainly isn't my first choice in solutions and I seriously doubt it's Carbine's first choice. That said, advertising would be great. Authentic guest passes would be great. Trials without so many road blocks would be great. Heck, even the WoW version "play to level 20 all you want" would be a great incentive. The "come back trials" while wonderful for a lot of folks ... well ... again, I was the only one out of a dozen good players to take them up on it. | |} ---- There is nothing to expand on. This whole thread just makes me rage. For starters it's not even your responsibility as a player to worry about the financial success of the company. I guess it's cute you care but there is something very wrong with treating a game as a financial investment. Most players who try to take up this burden end up quitting because they're dumb enough to care about profit for a company they aren't even invested in. Second of all, is it not blatantly obvious to you that being active in game and having fun in game helps foster a positive environment that makes other players happier and that positive happy environments attract others? If players are losing interest you should not try to keep them in a place they are not happy. | |} ---- Don't worry, we've all been there. I was vehemently against the idea back when I played WAR, but now I would gladly have accepted it given that it would have saved the game. Having played a ton of free/buy to play games now, I actually prefer the model. You might say I've converted. Praise f2p Jebus! | |} ---- I lived through the F2P transition in DC Universe, and it wasn't nearly as traumatic as people seemed to think it would be. And today, the game is still doing well, still putting out tons of new content and still a crapload of fun to play. Me, personally, I just pay my subscription anyway, no matter what game I'm playing. I can't stand playing "part" of a game, even if it's free. | |} ---- And stop yelling the game is dying and shutting down. That would help too. Talk the game up to people, not down. The game has plenty of positives. | |} ---- ---- ---- I have been meaning to suggest this but kept forgetting to. A recruit a friend system could work wonders for the game. | |} ---- ---- ---- They used to grant those account trials. In the end, they didn't do much good because they're so limited in scope. The 10 day free trial has been a lot more effective since you can just send your friends to a page. Now, that's not to say there's not merit in the idea. I've brought this idea up before: -Add a "recruit-a-friend" option in the subscription so that a player can type the name of a player or account that suggested the game (or used one of their codes you're suggesting be redistributed). They would be limitless per player (though their USE would be limited to maybe once a month or so for a few days or three months for a week). -As long as the recruited friend is subscribed both their subscriptions drop by a dollar-fifty a month. -You can stack this three times for a single player, and the third player actively invited drops the subscription by two dollars. Thus the following example: Rick invites a buddy to the trial. Buddy A subscribes. As long as Buddy A is subscribed, Rick and Buddy both pay 13.50 a month subscription. Rick then gets another buddy into the trial, who subscribes. Buddy A and Buddy B now are paying 13.50 a month, while Rick is paying 12 dollars a month. If Rick invites another buddy, his three Buddies pay 13.50, and he pays 10 dollars a month as long as everyone is subscribed. Imagine how much easier that would be for whole guilds to transfer over from games with their friends. And if Carbine and NCSoft can afford to lose a little overhead per player, they'll make up for it by volume. | |} ---- They should just change pvp all together, low level bracket will never pop like this. For dungeons i can at least enter with a higher level toon. Maybe the best thing is to de-couple the pvp totally from pve and give you a dictated pvp spec which you can customize and simply level everyone out to one stat so you don't have gear or stat gaps. Wait is the warrior still over powered in pvp, lets tweak his pvp stats a little bit. So much easier to balance classes that way... also no more carrying 4 different kind of gear around >> But who am I to say this... Carbine is going on with the system they have and trying to improve queues and things like that but only for the lvl 50 bracket of course... Who plays low level bracket pvp these days? | |} ---- I doubt many will be interested if i ask. Idea is nice though but it won't work. | |} ---- Any particular reason why you think that? | |} ---- The game already gets promoted enough and it's not the price of the subscription that is holding them back. Also the referral/friend system makes things just slightly more complicated and many simply aren't bothered enough with the hassle. extra: To get to the core, my friends are already playing other mmo's and they don't think they invest enough time into wildstar to justify the subscription. Mean while i got a few excited to play blade and soul in japan and few of them spend 55 dollars on it already within a month :/ ps. those servers are 9.500 km away and i get better ping on them then the wildstar server 300km away in Germany... that also makes my mind blow... | |} ---- The game hasn't been promoted barely at all outside their Facebook and our feedback. And this isn't a promotion, this is literally a measure whereby their subscription can be cheaper than another game's subscription, yet they can guarantee they'll make more money off two players (or more) than one. Refer a friend worked well in WoW, and that was nothing but game rewards. Best yet, since that person is definitely coming to the game with a friend, it's more likely they'll stay because they have an introduction to the social structure already. We're already talking about far more drastic price measures that would negatively impact the game, why are we hopping over this one saying that it's not about the money? This measure directly targets populations in other subscription games rather than giving NCSoft more of what they've already got. Seems like a far better idea to try. Tex has a few people already coming back for a spin through the free trial. Imagine if three of those people subbed, his sub dropped to ten, and he could tell those people that their sub would only be 13.50 until they got someone to play as well. NCSoft makes less profit on every individual player involved, but they only do it when their cumulative gains outweigh it. It's exactly how a "two for two dollar" sale works. That strategy is so effective elsewhere that you can put 2/3$ on a sign, and even list you're selling the item individually for a dollar fifty, and people STILL buy two because you put it on the sign. | |} ---- | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- That is straight up gating, no one wants to pay for half a cake, then when they say "what the hell, HALF A CAKE" then say, oh yeah, that will be 10 dollars for the other half. | |} ---- ---- *SIGH* But srsly did someone say something about a refer a friend? 'Cause if a free weekend was paired with a X% off sale and there was a refer a friend program I could see an explosion in sales during that weekend. | |} ---- They already have lower sub rates if you buy bigger chunks of time. I think the year long sub is 10.95 a month. It's not a bad deal if you have the money upfront. | |} ---- ---- Community stream marathons? Total twitch pug raids/dungeons? Screenshot flurries on twitter/tumblr/etc? Art jams on stream? Let's builds on twitch? Sign me up! :o | |} ---- Lot's of publishers did that and for some games I was there when Steam release happened -- it created a hugge spike of players all paying, which may be smaller due to Valve's cut, but its still a lot bigger than not having them at all. Steam is all about exposure and ATM it's a biggest place (worldwide) where people go to shop for games, so not having it there can only hurt the numbers. | |} ---- For that I think that some type of faction balance buff is needed, add the something like 5% exp/gold/drop whatever to the faction that has lower numbers to "push" people in playing it. Being strict faction separated game especially at the lower levels gives "empty" feeling to the players choosing the less popular one. Apart from that: level capped trial IMHO with housing and first "real" dungeon (some restrictions apply) drop or drastically reduce (like to $10) the box price events, and more events paired with some of the welcome back options (as I mentioned earlier) Steam release (every time someone did it it was a huge population spike) mentoring and QoL stuff if you invite someone (port to friend, better XP when grouping, cosmetic rewards, ...) -- thats a big one for me because even if I manage to pull someone in due to "classic" leveling brackets I cannot help him much apart from just throwing stuff at him and talking, creating alt every time I need to help someone is not that great of option, also I personally want to experience all of the content and not to be "punished" (xp, drops) for playing "old" one. did I mention in game events? And I definitely agree that population trickling in wont help much even if 100% of them stay, they need a big spike to re-start negative trend and recover from less-than-stellar launch and content. | |} ---- Had those and many died already, only a handful are left. | |} ---- ---- Except NCSoft will never agree to put it on Steam. They are direct competitors. It's like asking to put an Origin exclusive title on Steam, will it increase the exposure? Yes, but the publisher wont agree to it due to loss of $$ from sales and Steam is VERY aggressive in their cut. Very very aggressive. | |} ---- So is Trion and ZMO and they put AA and ESO on Steam. | |} ---- Look at GW2. NCSoft hasn't put that there even though GW1 was. It has more to do with NCSoft as a company. | |} ---- Too bad. Having seen what Steam launch can do to the game (I was in FE, STO, LOTRO and few others when happened) IMHO they are missing a lot, even 50% of the box price is still better than nothing, also AFAIK subs can be bought outside of Steam after initial purchase (bought EVE and FFXIV trough them). Edited April 6, 2015 by nesh | |} ---- Easy way for a possible fix for this situation: Give Dominion characters another 25% exp, glory and renown boost in the 1-49 bracket, till the population equalizes... The increased leveling might actually "convince" new players to roll Dominion. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Are you opposed to the idea of buying any appearance altering items at all, or the selling of cash-only items that cannot be obtained otherwise? How would you feel if some of the more rare dies / costumes could be bought with CREDD? | |} ---- So long as it remains a purely cosmetic shop (filled with decor, costumes, dyes, or whatever) and not actual gear, I wouldn't really care. That is assuming that it remains unobtrusive (no enormous "BUY NOW!" buttons thrown into the UI as in certain freemium games...). | |} ---- Credd is 30+ plat on Jabbit so it's not so easy to get, i won't be surprised it goes up to 40 plat the end of this month. Credd also need Players to buy credd first with real money, with the way it's going now I'm not willing to spend extra money on that. The future of Wildstar is unclear and the player base is not optimal so this doesn't expire confidence to invest. | |} ---- Exclusive items *FURIOUSLY EYES TOPHAT AND BLUE DYE*. But that also adds onto the slippery slope fear of "what if they make getting those items such a grind that you'll either be forced to pay or hate the game" | |} ---- In GW2 they kinda have the system like credd but instead of a sub you auction store gems, since 1 credd = $15 = 15plat (30plat in the eu) it's a big chunk so to say. With gems you can maybe get 1500 gems for $15 and so sell 1 gem for 1 gold. This also kind of encourage the market to be active. Anyway i rather have no sub with a store because with a sub you must pay $15 just to get access to the game and you do get game access for that but it never feels like you actually get or own the game. With f2p/b2p you decide when to play without worries that you haven't bought a sub for this month and when you spend cash in the cash shop you get something that stays with you. That outfit will always be something you own. And the buy isn't forced on you like the sub. | |} ---- I play gw2 and I am thankful for the gem exchange, but that exchange rate is far more harsh than the CREDD exchange. I prefer WS's deal because I can pay 15 dollars / 15 plat a month to experience everything the game offers instead of paying 30 bucks / 400 gold every few weeks to experience all the fun fluff in the game. (And that 400 gold would take tireless grinding to obtain and leave me no time to actually enjoy that fluff or the parts of the game that I want to play) | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- To be fair, the GW2 cash shop is purely cosmetic except for the convenience items like the unlimited harvesting tools (which I'm still not sure are even worth the cash since it's so cheap to buy harvesting tools with gold). The content that people can pay to unlock is only relevant if they missed playing the game for a while. I know you know how this works, but for people here who don't play GW2: The game's Living Story unlocks new content for free periodically, which you can access permanently if you play through while it's live. If you miss the window to play while the current chapter of the story is live, you can use gems to unlock after the fact. For the record I'm not saying that Carbine should lock character customization behind gems like ArenaNet does. Then again, GW2 is B2P so they've got to generate revenue somehow. | |} ---- On Entity CREDD: 15.1 P Runic Elemental Flux: 2.96 P Archivos Weapons: 20-24 P, only 4 on the market Archivos Clothing: 19-25 P, only 5 on the market | |} ---- Yeah, this is why I'm against pretty much any form of cosmetic cash shop. Even the ones that let out somehow earn it through in-game activities tend to make earning it such an incredibly painful grind that you'd rather gouge your eyeballs out. There are so many people in WS for whom housing and customization is their endgame. Putting that stuff on a cash shop would be like stabbing them (us) in the back. | |} ---- So it's only the credd market that is double the proce... which makes me worry. | |} ---- Well that is then their choice.What choice do i have when i dont want/cant pay for the sub and I can't grind for the credd? | |} ---- ---- ---- http://replygif.net/1331 You don't play. If they did put in a cosmetic cash shop the stuff in it wouldn't be obtainable in-game because that would ruin the point of investing time/effort/manpower/monetary resources into a cash shop. | |} ---- Sorry but I did not got that one hehe. What did you mean? | |} ---- Your post confused me so greatly that I couldn't find the words to describe it. Assuming you're talking about the APB: Reloaded' cash shop, they sell weapons and gear in a PvP shooting game, that's just bad. | |} ---- I'm saying: 1. I dont think gw2 model is the way to go 2. The system In APB reloaded works very good for APB reloaded and i have spent alot of money in that game. Alot meaning same amount as 1 year sub to wildstar would have costed. And nope It aint bad at all:) I'm not coming up with any solid solutions...for that I have to get paid;)...just commenting and providing my personal experiences with how I have spent money on games...and I was just trying to comment on directions the game takes to improve success:) | |} ---- ---- I am one of those people. Except I don't think it's magic, just basing my assumptions on observations I've made over the past however many years that games have had cash shops. New item coming out = tons of people running around in game with that item. The impulse buy is real. And cash shop revenue can be used to develop other parts of the game and draw more players. In other words: magic. | |} ---- Quick question, when has this ever happened? In a P2P model the overall content is what brings in revenue; in a F2P model the cash shop brings in the revenue; so what does that tell you? Why will a developer spend time in creating content that doesn't bring in money?out of the love for their game? I think not. | |} ---- I dunno, man. DC Universe does a pretty good job of a cash shop that supplements the subscriptions and has tons of new content at pretty regular intervals. It's "Free to Play" in that, yeah, you can make a toon and level up to Endgame, but unless you subscribe (at which point all the content becomes available, minus a few customizations and goofy novelty toys), the raiding scene is nearly impossible to navigate for long as a purely "free" player - given that the highest tiers of raiding are behind DLC walls. | |} ---- World of Warcraft | |} ---- ---- I was never talking about a F2P system with a cash shop. I see other people are though. What I'm talking about is a sub game with a cash shop. People spend boatloads of money on a cash shop even in a game with a subscription fee... I personally spent ~$400 on WoW's just around the launch of Warlords of Draenor on character boosts and faction changes, which is about 27 months of subscription if you look at it that way. I'm not the biggest whale out there by far. | |} ---- Now, re-skin those 55 pets three times each, and put those into packs on the cash shop. So say we get an Electro-Frizlet in-game. For $10 on the cash shop, you can also get the Magma-Frizlet, the Toxic-Frizlet and the Aqua-Frizlet! Win! | |} ---- ---- ---- People who play the game and want to buy stuff they like and have no problem dropping another $15-30 on top of their sub? I think you're underestimating the power that 'fluff' items have on people. WoW and FFXIV has a cash shop in their game and it makes a lot of revenue for them and it sure as hell doesn't hurt 'development'. Now you can say look at how slow Blizzard has been, but the game is 10 years old with 5 x-pacs and TONS of content. Also, FF quarterly updates are HUGE. | |} ---- ---- Please enlighten us on how it is insane? People will spend money if you give them more means to do it, it happens all the time with many sub based things. | |} ---- Yeah, I'm not seeing the insanity. Well, no more insane than anything else that capitalism has brought us. I'll be as honest as I can and see if it makes sense. I pay my subscription like everyone else. I also have some extra liquid cash that isn't being spent on living expenses. Let's say I'm playing WoW and they put a shiny new golden dragon mount up on the Cash Shop for $20. Hey! I have an extra $20 and I love golden dragons! *Insert Fry "Take My Money" meme here* Now look! I have an awesome new mount and Blizzard has another $20 to put toward other content, paying programmers, doing advertising, whatever. The point is, their bottom line just went up and I got a golden dragon mount to proudly fly through Azeroth upon. Now please, without any snark at all, explain which part of that is "insane." | |} ---- ---- I'm not proud, not sure how you got sound out of text. Nor am I embarrassed, however. I have a job, and I spend a lot less than I earn. What I choose to do with my disposable income is up to me. There are lots of people like me who don't find it greedy at all. The only thing that bothered me about Blizzard's cash shop is that they were selling flying mounts when flying was turned off in the new content. | |} ---- All good man. :-) | |} ---- I understand what you're saying, hell I've been playing MMO's since 1997 with UO, but the MMO landscape is nothing like it was 17 years ago, or even 5. Times change and MMO's need to change with it. | |} ---- ---- Uhm. The wardrobe overhaul, the pet system, all of that "fluff"? That's content. That is content I would be supremely disappointed in Carbine for if they put it on a cash shop instead. F2P games with extensive cash shops are one thing. P2P games with them? They honestly disgust me. @Tex: How have they changed? Server costs have gotten cheaper. If anything, my $15/month should be going further (and it does, because we get a lot of awesome in a single game). | |} ---- ---- Err how does you 15 dollar not entitle you to anything? Its your entitlement fee lol! If you go to a hotel all in for 50 bucks you are entitled to get upset if they charge you for your food extra. Now in a F2P you're entitled to take it up the ¨¨¨¨¨ss, because its free. Times have changed? It is only changed because we keep on letting them. As long as we give them reasons ( buy their crap ) they will only look for ways to increase revenue by doing less! And i'm not looking at the developers per se i'm looking at the board members with their shares. They do not care about anything game related they just want to see their shares go up. And what the hell do they care how we feel about it. | |} ---- ---- This ain't 2004 anymore. Server costs might have gone down, but do you think the salaries of the studio teams have gone down? I've mentioned this before, but it's been a long time, so let me try again: Investment drives production. I think that's a truism that, if we all start off knowing, will make everything that comes after easier to understand. Revenue drives investment. Meaning, the more money a product/good/service brings in, the more investors are willing to spend. That's how investors (in our case, NCSoft, et al) stay vested in a project. The money-men put up finances, the company ostensibly makes that money back and then some. It's the "and then some" that's called "profits." Profits are the (hopeful) end-result of production. Thus, the full circle of Production > Profits > Investment > Production. With me so far? Okay, now outside of base subscriptions, how else can a game like this make more money, to drive higher profits in order to receive even more investment capital? Thus, the cash shop. Cash Shop stuff is designed. A trip through the Art Department, a few days in QA and *boom* out it goes to the world, for a small fee. In a P2P game, those things are almost always cosmetic things (pets, skins, mounts) or level QoL crap (XP boosts, etc). But nothing that's going to be "pay to win" ... high-quality weapons, endgame gear, etc. Now that single piece of artwork (say, the Flaming Carrot Sword mentioned earlier) can be sold over and over and over again. And all that money goes straight to the bottom line, driving up profits and, in turn, encouraging investors. I know, I know. The real world, right? Gamers don't like to think that there is a real world outside their game-time, but there really, really is. And that game you're enjoying exists solely because of one reason, and one reason only. Money. Best get used to that thought. because that's how the world works. | |} ---- Ah, condecension. Lovely! I'm quite comfortable in my role as consumer advocate, though. I feel no need to hop into the pants of companies that want nothing other than to bleed me dry. | |} ---- IDK, with the new changes it's not TOO terrible. Total extra needed: 7 Ability, 10 AMP Path gives you 1 AMP and 1 Ability - 6 Ability, 9 AMP PvP grinding has 2 Ability, 3 AMP - Total of 62 games if you get 500 Prestige per game - 4 Ability 6 AMP Gold Shiphands 1 AMP point - 1500 Reknown - 4 Ability 5 AMP Reknown Vendor 1 AMP and 1 Ability - 500,000 Reknown - 3 Ability 4 AMP Rest from daily zones + EG since you'll finish. It's a little grindy, but hopefully with the changes to rep gotten per quest the time to get to max rep is shorter. | |} ---- ---- People just don't like to see real world facts used in their games, because it's an outlet from their real life. Like you said I think people forget gaming is a multi-Billion dollar business now, and keeping up with the market trends is what is needed, even if some people hate the way the market has shifted. | |} ---- Business sense and consumer advocacy are not the same. In fact, what's "best" for a business is often exactly counter to what's best for the consumer. People getting it in their mind that they can only think of a company's bottom line and that their own consumer interests are irrelevant and inferior is what's gotten us trapped in dealing with a lot of nasty messes and business practices. | |} ---- Exactly. Companies need to make money to survive and thrive. Sure, WoW is big enough to not really *need* that cosmetic cash shop, but dang, I bet their current investors would FLIP OUT if they woke up one morning and decided that they were going to close it down. | |} ---- ---- Yup, on Entity it's 0.75 plat per dollar. And whoever is selling those pistols... I want to make a deal with you! Gimme 1 month and don't sell em and I'll hand you 220 plat XD | |} ---- Because they will stop playing the game if the game is not enjoyable, it isn't a fashion show ;) | |} ---- But GW2 is making more then 4 times the income now and has a larger population even though wildstar had about the same income at launch. The Elder Scroll is doing a lot better when it went B2P and I can say the same for BnS Japan that went free to play 2 months ago, i had to wait in a queue 3 weeks ago... | |} ---- If i don't pay then i loose all my investment... and the more i pay the more i invest and the more i will loose... it's an endless loop and i hate that. Lets start with a good connection to the server https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/119065-massive-lag-and-dc-on-jabbit/ ;) | |} ---- This doesn't really follow. Right now, we invest $15 each month. For that investment, we get a month of gametime. If you sub for a month, play, but then quit the next month, you don't suddenly lose the $15 you invested. You already made use of that investment. When I quit WoW after 4 years, I didn't magically lose all the money I'd invested in that game. I'd already made use of it plenty by the constant play I had during my subscription time. | |} ---- With investment i also mean game time and things like that, the moment you don't buy more game time you lose access to it and so there isn't really a difference. If we look at a model without a subscription then the items or other things you have bought will always be accessible for as long as the game exist. | |} ---- Models with a subscription don't delete your items and characters when you unsub. All of your effort and time isn't lost to the void; you just have to sub again to make use of it. (Btw, not pointing that out because I think you might not know that but because I disagree that you lose prior investment in a sub-based game once you unsub. You can always come back later.) | |} ---- What free game has an unsub option that nukes your shit? | |} ---- I know what you mean but do you get from where I'm coming from? =) It's just an endless loop of paying more and more unless you don't want to access your things you have worked for. You could check the license agreement there might be a time limited for them to keep your account and characters | |} ---- Free games with cash shops that sell limited duration items? '3' | |} ---- Well yeah, but it's usually a freakishly long time of you not logging in at all before they take action to clear up the names you were using. It's a free game and you stopped playing it for a loooooooong time. I'm also pretty sure that if we're talking about sub optional games, the act of subbing gives you an even longer time to never even log in before they delete your shit, if they even do it post sub. Pretty sure that's kinda rare nowadays, though I haven't bought anything in a Nexon or Aeria game for about 8 years. | |} ---- That depends on the company not on the payment method. WS already has wiped characters. | |} ---- I'd even be happy paying cash for things like faction transfers. I'd get at least three since my Dommies lost their guild about 6 months ago... Just restrict the species choices to ones that can be whatever class the characters are, easy peasy, take my money! (Yes it would take coding, game development time, bug testing, etc, 99% of you folks on the forums work in game development apparently.) | |} ---- Little late in responding to this, but again, Steam won't happen. Go find me an NCSoft game on Steam. I'll wait. You won't find any because NCSoft won't let Valve take any sales cuts from their product. | |} ---- NCSoft started putting games on Steam back in 2009... http://us.ncsoft.com/en/news/press-releases/ncsoft-offers-award-winning-product-lineup-on-steam.php | |} ---- Yeah, I know, a cursory google search shows 3 games from 2009. 6 years ago. 2 of those games are dead, one game is no longer in development but can be purchased. Those are the ONLY games to be put on Steam, and that was when NC West still ran the Western games. When Chris Chung was the CEO. | |} ---- But if you're not enjoying the game, why would you want to access your things? If you're enjoying the game, you pay. That's the model. I see the point you're making, but I disagree. That wasn't the point. :P | |} ---- ---- ----